blurring the boundaries on assisted suicide

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the euthanasia 'clinic system' as per Switzerland

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falkor
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blurring the boundaries on assisted suicide

Post by falkor » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:47 am

26th July 2009
Comments (51) During the past few months, the campaign to permit assisted suicide has been steadily ratcheted up. There has been a stream of stories about people travelling to the grisly Dignitas euthanasia 'clinic' in Switzerland to be killed, the most recent of whom were the conductor Sir Edward Downes and his wife.

An attempt by Lord Falconer to change the law so that anyone helping someone travel to such a place to end their life would no longer face prosecution was beaten back in the House of Lords - but it was a close-run thing.

Now the Royal College of Nursing has announced that it is taking a 'neutral' position on assisted suicide, becoming the second major medical institution to withdraw its opposition. The British Medical Association did so in 2005, although it switched back to opposition after a backlash from appalled members.

A Populus opinion poll last week found that 74 per cent of people wanted doctors to be allowed to help terminally ill patients end their lives, and six out of ten also wanted to be able to help the dying commit suicide without fear of prosecution.
This is all most disturbing. People's deepest fears are being manipulated to make a change in the law to permit assisted suicide appear virtually inevitable. Although all poll results must be taken with a pinch of salt, it isn't surprising that the numbers supporting such a change have risen.

For this relentless campaign has played ruthlessly upon the nightmarish possibility of having to face dreadful suffering without being able to end it. Few of us are entirely free of such fears; those who have distressing medical conditions may understandably be terrified of such a prospect.

However, it is not necessarily founded in medical fact. This week, the Law Lords are due to rule on the case of multiple sclerosis sufferer Debbie Purdy, who wants to make sure her husband would not be prosecuted if he accompanied her to a euthanasia clinic should she want to end her life.

Ms Purdy is terrified of unbearable pain or choking to death. But as palliative care experts have tried to assure her, multiple sclerosis sufferers don't usually have difficulty in swallowing, and with the right care there is no reason why they should die in pain.

And despite the illegality of assisted suicide, no relatives have ever been prosecuted and it is exceedingly unlikely that they ever would be. So it's hard to avoid concluding that Ms Purdy, whose case is backed by Dignity In Dying (formerly the Voluntary Euthanasia Society), is being most wickedly used.

We should have great sympathy for anyone in such a position. But the law is there to protect the vulnerable. And the awful possibility now looming is that we may make those who desperately need such protection more likely instead to be exploited or

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Re: blurring the boundaries on assisted suicide

Post by psychbunny » Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:42 pm

Hmmm, contraversial topic...
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Re: blurring the boundaries on assisted suicide

Post by Paxovasa » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:22 am

We should be allowed to choose!


I voted "should be adopted in the UK immediately".
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Re: blurring the boundaries on assisted suicide

Post by psychbunny » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:03 pm

Paxovasa wrote:We should be allowed to choose!


I voted "should be adopted in the UK immediately".
I think the main arguement here is that if able bodied people can choose suicide, why can't those who are unable to due to some physical problem?
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Re: blurring the boundaries on assisted suicide

Post by DarkKnight » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:41 pm

I passed on this, it should be ok for our citizens to do it in another country as it has been lately. They shouldn't investigate a relative returning from one of those trips, once they went over and did it then that was it done.
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Re: blurring the boundaries on assisted suicide

Post by falkor » Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:20 pm

it is a very controversial topic

maybe it is not as simple as it seems

to me it is case of stopping somebody going through suffering simply to keep them alive (in a quality of life that is too low to justify it)

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Re: blurring the boundaries on assisted suicide

Post by Paxovasa » Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:25 pm

If you are of sound mind but unable to do it yourself then surely a doctor should be able to administer an injection that will end your suffering!

If you take a pet to the vets, they will put them to sleep for good to end there suffering!

Crazy world when pets are treated with more dignity than us humans!
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Re: blurring the boundaries on assisted suicide

Post by psychbunny » Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:33 pm

Paxovasa wrote:If you are of sound mind but unable to do it yourself then surely a doctor should be able to administer an injection that will end your suffering!

If you take a pet to the vets, they will put them to sleep for good to end there suffering!

Crazy world when pets are treated with more dignity than us humans!
The problem doctors have is that they take the Hippocratic oath, and from what I understand - they vow to preserve life at all costs. I don't think general doctors should perform this sort of treatment. It's a contradiction. I think a dedicated centre would be a good alternative.

I think the Swiss clinc works on the basis that the doctors set up all the gear and leave you in a room with a button. You press it and are therefore still technically taking your own life, it's still your decision.
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Re: blurring the boundaries on assisted suicide

Post by falkor » Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:27 pm

The problem doctors have is that they take the Hippocratic oath, and from what I understand - they vow to preserve life at all costs. I don't think general doctors should perform this sort of treatment. It's a contradiction.
yes this is the crux of it

don't know about the next paragraph though

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Re: blurring the boundaries on assisted suicide

Post by AMYROSE » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:49 am

A couple of problems emerge here. Firstly, the doctors of today might sign a Hippocratic oath but their treatments and attitudes to patients are at odds with those of Hippocrates, who followed the Aeslepian tradition of medicine. The Hippocratic/Aesclepian treatments primarily involved the use of 'simples' which were one drug treatments. Drugs, or more correctly powerful medicinal herbs were only given after all else had failed. All else involved specific yogic type exercise routines, cleansing practices, regular massage treatments and a suitable diet in accordance with one's constitution, which included lots of herbs, such as thyme, rosemary, sage and so on, similar to traditional Chinese medicine and Ayuveda. Also, Aeslepius founded a hospital in a spectacularly beautiful region of Greece to treat those whose symptoms prevailed after treatment or those whom needed more in the way of recuperation. At his hospital uplifting concerts and plays were regularly performed to enrich the spirits of the patients, art, poetry, gardening and other such pastimes were also encouraged. Can't find any similarity with todays hospitals or treatments, and the Hippocratic oath is basically 'you don't discuss your patients ailments and treatment with anyone else who is not a doctor except ..... and you are to keep your patients in ignorance and to not allow them (your patients) any say or control over what is being done or is going to be done or given to them.'

Secondly, the baby boom generation are heading towards the retirement age and what better way to save on pension payments than to encourage the elderly to 'top themselves'. Newspapers will shortly have hate inducing headlines explaining how the youth of today can't have a better education, housing, dole money etc because of the cost of paying pensions to all these 'living' pensioners. They'll be pensioner murderers getting off with their crimes because of excuses like 'well he couldn't walk properly and I thought he wanted to die, so I put him out of his misery.' It's another government scam.

Let's not forget that at the last count in the 1980's, 1 in 3 hospital beds were taken up by someone with an adverse reaction to their G.P's or a hospitals treament(s). Now, that rate has probably doubled or maybe it's even worse than that, so for those who want to die an early assisted death just visit your G.P. As far as assisted suicide goes, when my father was dying from Cancer in the very early '80's he choose to die at home. It was obviously a harrowing death and his G.P. left him with enough powerful pain killers to kill the whole family, so he could have choosen that way out if he had wanted to.

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Re: blurring the boundaries on assisted suicide

Post by psychbunny » Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:49 pm

There is research (somewhere...I can't remember without hunting for it) that states that you cannot be talked into suicide. Taking your own life is something you either consider as an option or not. For the majority of people, it isn't a viable option to end their suffering. I don't think that these clinics would just attract pensioners - the state of the world today has many of them scared, but there aren't a large amount of them topping themselves now. (The highest suicide age range is around 15-25 years old).
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Re: blurring the boundaries on assisted suicide

Post by DarkKnight » Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:46 am

psychbunny wrote:There is research (somewhere...I can't remember without hunting for it) that states that you cannot be talked into suicide. Taking your own life is something you either consider as an option or not. For the majority of people, it isn't a viable option to end their suffering. I don't think that these clinics would just attract pensioners - the state of the world today has many of them scared, but there aren't a large amount of them topping themselves now. (The highest suicide age range is around 15-25 years old).

You can be talked into suicide, look at all those doomsday cults that have brainwashed their members into doing it.
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Re: blurring the boundaries on assisted suicide

Post by psychbunny » Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:46 am

DarkKnight wrote:
psychbunny wrote:There is research (somewhere...I can't remember without hunting for it) that states that you cannot be talked into suicide. Taking your own life is something you either consider as an option or not. For the majority of people, it isn't a viable option to end their suffering. I don't think that these clinics would just attract pensioners - the state of the world today has many of them scared, but there aren't a large amount of them topping themselves now. (The highest suicide age range is around 15-25 years old).

You can be talked into suicide, look at all those doomsday cults that have brainwashed their members into doing it.
Perhaps, I'm just recalling some research someone once told me. There are a lot of extra factors in those sort of doomsday cults that you don't get in everyday life though.
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Re: blurring the boundaries on assisted suicide

Post by DarkKnight » Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:51 am

psychbunny wrote:

You can be talked into suicide, look at all those doomsday cults that have brainwashed their members into doing it.
Perhaps, I'm just recalling some research someone once told me. There are a lot of extra factors in those sort of doomsday cults that you don't get in everyday life though.[/quote]

It don't make a difference though, if your mind is weak enough at that instant you will do it with or without suggestion but suggestion is always around you, sometimes from your own mind.

You can be your own worst enemy you know.
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